Let me start by correcting my earlier statement about “irrefutable evidence”. Obviously anyone can refute information by a simple disagreement. What I have is powerful evidence of the existence of God, and if you truly are interested you can verify my evidence to find that they are, in fact, true.

We should set some ground rules first. If you disagree with anything I state here, that is fine, but you need to back it up with qualified research as I have done. If you want to have additional information but do not want to post it here, you can PM me and I’ll answer as quickly as I can.

Maybe you might be saying to yourself, “I don’t care if there is a God or if Christianity is true or not. I am more concerned if that belief system works for me. I don’t care if it is true. I just want to know if I read up on Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc, will it help me.” If this is your position…

Let me tell you a story about a fictitious character named Bolo. I don't want you to think that he is a real person, so don't get upset. I am going to use him as an example.

Bolo was not the sharpest knife in the drawer. He passed high school with a C average, and decided to go to college and major in physics. In his first exam he gets 3 out of 100 correct. He asked a question of the professor so bad that it hardly had anything to do with the subject at all. It was so bad that the professor decided to make a mockery of him. He gathered all the faculty members and science majors on campus in a secret meeting and said, "Let's mock this dunce, Bolo, during the 4 years he is here. Let’s make him think he’s the smartest student ever at this college.". Everyone agreed, and they all made this guy think he was the smartest guy on campus. He passed all his tests with A's and his peers constantly sought his opinions. After graduation, he decided to get a doctorate in physics. No problem, with a little emailing from his professors, the whole educational community was in on the joke. He finally graduates Summa Cum-Laude. He goes to work for a top ten university. He is frequently consulted by the white house, he oversees a dozen doctoral dissertations each year, he lectures all over the world, and he thinks he is doing a great job. However, he is the laughing stock of the world and people hate his guts. They think he is an idiot and joke.

Here is the question;
Would you want to be Bolo? Would you want your children to have the life of Bolo?

Before you answer let me remind you that Bolo’s beliefs work for him. From the time he wakes up in the morning till he goes to bed he thinks “I’m smart”. My students are lucky to have me. I am doing the world a favor with my lectures. My country appreciates me for what I am doing."

The only problem here is, everything he believes, is wrong!

So if you don’t envy Bolo, there is one thing about a belief that is more important that whether it works for you… and that is whether it is true!
If you are on a quest to know if there is a God and if there is a religion that is most likely to be true compared to the other ones, I want to say to you…. There is a God.

I will give you three powerful reasons why God exists.

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"There will always be a place for us somewhere, somehow, as long as we see to it that working people fight for everything they have, everything they hope to get, for dignity, equality, democracy, to oppose war and to bring to the world a better life."
...Harry Bridges
"I'm a working stiff. I just happened to be around at the right time, and nobody else wanted the job."
...Harry Bridges
"No man has ever been born a Negro hater, a Jew hater, or any other kind of hater. Nature refuses to be involved in such suicidal practices."
...Harry Bridges


ILWU - The Muscle that moves the country!
www.engrish.com

Fact #1

We now know beyond any reasonable doubt that the cosmos began to exist. There is no question as to the physical universe of space, time, and matter began to exist. It has not been here forever. Many scientists have differing opinions as to the age of the cosmos, most in the 15-20 billion years old. But that is not the point here. The point is there is wide spread agreement that space, time and matter began to exist in the past.

But how do we know that? There are 4 pieces of evidence, but I will share 2 with you as they can be quite lengthy and I don’t want to lose anyone to the dry subject matter.

1st piece of evidence:
May years ago scientist discovered a physical law called the 2nd law of thermodynamics. There are a couple of ways to formulate the law, but the law basically says that universe is running out of energy. One way to think of this is that the universe is running out of gas. An example, or analogy, of this is, if I had a coffee cup sitting on a table and you came up and touched it and it was still warm. What could you conclude about this? You could conclude that the coffee cup had not been there very long, certainly not for 50 years or even 5 days. The cup had most likely been there for no more than 20 or so minutes. If the coffee cup had been there for 5 days or more, it would have already gone cold to the touch. The universe is like that coffee cup.
A few years ago Time magazine did an article about how cosmologists think the universe is going to end. There is agreement in the scientific community that sometime in the future, the universe will end. The universe will reach a point of total darkness, absolute cold, and motionless. If the universe is running out of energy, and it has not run out of energy yet… what does that mean, or what is entailed by that? It is entailed that the universe had to have a beginning. Because if the universe had no beginning, and it was running out of energy, it would have reached the point of total darkness and coldness infinitely long ago. British scientist Paul Davies said, “It is as though something or someone put energy into the universe from the beginning, and it has been running down ever since”.

2nd piece of evidence;
Suppose God gave me job of counting because He wanted me to count forever. I could count forever and never reach infinity. In fact I would always be infinitely far away from infinity. You could stop me and I would be able to give you a finite answer of where I was. Lets say I was on 50 million billion quad-zillion and another person gets the same job that I have and he starts counting. I can’t say to him, “I’m closer to finishing than you are”, because we are both infinitely far away from finishing.
What this means is that you can not go from zero to infinity. If you cannot go from zero to infinity that is like trying to jump out of a pit that is infinitely tall. There is no edge to grab onto. The walls go literally forever.
Now if the universe had no beginning, let’s say here is the present moment on the line. Backward on the line is 50 years ago, 500 years ago, 100 million years ago, 50 quad-zillion years ago… how far does this line go? Does this line have an edge on it? NO, because if it had an edge on it… it would be the beginning. That line is infinitely far in the past. This means, to get to the present moment in time, would require the universe to cross an infinite number of earlier moments, which is impossible. That means if the universe where infinitely old, this present moment could never happen.
Because going from zero to positive infinity is as impossible as going from minus infinity to zero. Only going from minus infinity to zero is even worse, because not only can you not finish it, you can’t even get started. Take any number in the past, say 1 million years ago. How many moments would the universe have to cross to get to that point? An infinite number! So take any number in the past, and that moment itself could not be reached. Trying to go from minus infinity to zero is like trying to jump out of an infinitely tall, bottomless pit, there’s no place to even get started. That means if the universe had been here forever, the present moment could never have arrived. Because the present moment is here now, and could only have been preceded by a finite number of earlier moments, which means there had to be a beginning to time.

As Ted Koppel said on Nightline, “Bangs would seem to have Bangers”. If you get the universe coming into existence, it would have to be something “super natural” that caused the beginning of the natural world. Whatever caused the beginning of the space/time world, was not special, was not temporal, and was not physical. It was “super natural”, that means beyond the natural realm. You cannot get time from something that is time-less unless it is the “first mover” or “first cause”. If it has to change before it can produce time, then its changing to produce time would in fact be the first moment. Whatever it is has to produce time without having to change itself first. The only things that can do that is an entity with voluntary free choice, like a person causing their arm to move, you just will it and it happens with no prior cause. The universe had to be created by something non-spatial, non-temporal, non-physical, transcendent to the natural world. That is what super natural means, it has to have the power volitional free choice.

Now this may not be the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob… but its getting close.

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"There will always be a place for us somewhere, somehow, as long as we see to it that working people fight for everything they have, everything they hope to get, for dignity, equality, democracy, to oppose war and to bring to the world a better life."
...Harry Bridges
"I'm a working stiff. I just happened to be around at the right time, and nobody else wanted the job."
...Harry Bridges
"No man has ever been born a Negro hater, a Jew hater, or any other kind of hater. Nature refuses to be involved in such suicidal practices."
...Harry Bridges


ILWU - The Muscle that moves the country!
www.engrish.com

God does not exist in time as we know it.There is no time to God.All these questions and others will be answered in our next life.Ahhh for some of us anyway.

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huh wise guy huh certainly

Hell was created for Satan and his angels, only humans are dumb enough to choose to go there.

so when will lunger start posting evidence? and why do we have to jump between two threads? its stupid.

I didn't think the pix section was appropriate for this discussion. Anyway, that was only Fact #1. I know that the info listed in Fact #1 is like taking a drink from a fire hose, but that is about as deep as I wanted to take the first piece of evidence. More to follow with facts #2 and #3.

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"There will always be a place for us somewhere, somehow, as long as we see to it that working people fight for everything they have, everything they hope to get, for dignity, equality, democracy, to oppose war and to bring to the world a better life."
...Harry Bridges
"I'm a working stiff. I just happened to be around at the right time, and nobody else wanted the job."
...Harry Bridges
"No man has ever been born a Negro hater, a Jew hater, or any other kind of hater. Nature refuses to be involved in such suicidal practices."
...Harry Bridges


ILWU - The Muscle that moves the country!
www.engrish.com

I know that.....but, me knowing that is not going to convince anybody else of that. That is why i was trying to point out the weakness of the "universe exists in real time, not infinite time" argument. Although the facts seem to be pretty solid from a physics standpoint, I fail to see how these facts will alter the opinion of a person that beleives in the whole "spontaneous universe" thing.

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"Dr. Evil took my Mojo!!!" -Tiger Woods

do me a favor lunger, and just announce when you are going to give this evidence you keep talking about. that will save me the time of reading all this blah blah which does nothing to prove the existence of god.

*footnote added to earlier post...

i would like to add that its great having this discussion with lunger. its a pleasure "battling" with someone who understands that im not being malicious and who doesnt feel the need to call names simply because he disagrees. i know that he knows that i do indeed have an open mind and am willing to listen and also knows if i disagree im gonna be a smartass about it. he absorbs and comes back with his best punch. the way a discussion should be. while the info given so far has not shown me what was promised, it has at least been interesting. i referred it to as blah blah due to the lack of substantiality in backing his claim(in my opinion). i cannot really accuse him of being way out of context and reaching way out there for conclusions like his allies on this site.

So, in order to believe in lugies evidence, you must be stupid enough to drink from a firehose.

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Religion isn't the opiate of the masses......it's the placebo.-Dr. House
You couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were on the heel.

Whats ridiculous about it if you believe in God as I do I know that all my questions will be answered when i stand before him thats if there even important to me at that time which they probably won't be.

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huh wise guy huh certainly

Hell was created for Satan and his angels, only humans are dumb enough to choose to go there.

Joe I love ya brother but I think if God came down from the sky and landed right in front of you,you would look to see if he was wearing a jet pack and then look for the "you've been punk'd cameras".

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huh wise guy huh certainly

Hell was created for Satan and his angels, only humans are dumb enough to choose to go there.